Cap outs Lifters and Perth congregationalists

Cap outs, Lifters and Perth congregationalists The Congregational Church in Perth has few written documents on its early history, yet their claim is that some thinking men became Congregationalists as early as 1794. They purchased Paul Street Chapel about that time. Having called the preacher James Garie to their Church in that year, they were forced into a situation which they would have preferred to avoid. Garie wished to make the Chapel a Place of Ease * for those in the Church of Scotland. This was not acceptable to the trustees of the building and, after 18 months, Garie left to take up ministry with the Church of Scotland. This, however, was also unsuccessful. The chapel was put up for sale and was then repurchased by some of the Church and was advertised for use with the "returned Mr Garie and the congregation of Christian people" in 1798. They and the proprietors of the building not Garie, were keen to have an independent church. Garie tried to be admitted to the Church of Scotland but was refused. Shortly before this, in 1790, a schism arose among other Seceders. It was based around the dispensing of the elements at the Lord's Supper. The new group were called "Cap outs" and they built a chapel at Thimblerow. Their numbers reduced quickly, and the building was offered to the Presbytery as a Chapel of Ease. This offer was rejected but the Missionaries (Congregationalists) bought it. (Who are they?) The next minister of the “Garie’s church “was James Colquhoun, minister of the Relief Church Campsie. He had been invited 9 years earlier to minister in Perth at the East (Relief) Church and had declined.  The Church had grown and on “the better of the break-up of the “lifters” in 1793”. This was in connection with the Communion where the lifters required the minister to lift the bread and wine before serving to the congregation. Colquhoun ministered till around October 1801 when he left to take up a dissenting Presbyterian congregation in North Shields. At some point some of the congregation of Colquhoun’s Church (Old friends of Garie!)invite Garie back to Perth. They bought Paul Street. We do not know much about the Congregational church post Garie indeed we do not know where they worshipped but Garie’s friends were able to buy their former building. 1798 the now Garie group worshipping in the former Congregational church now owned by “the friends” join the group in South Street at the tabernacle supported by Robert Haldane.

This period was one of growth for the Congregational Church with many new Churches developing from the work of the Haldane brothers. The Perth Congregational Church has a plate with the inscription "Perth Union Church, 1798", but whether this was the original name or not is unclear. (Uncertainty exists also regarding the matter of the parties who became the "Union"). The title Congregational Church, Perth, was the new name taken in that same year. Shortly before Garie's death he wrote to a prominent lady and in this letter, he stated that "within two weeks back, I have received 17 out of 21 applicants for Church membership. Mostly young people and recently awakened". He added "Last week a young man received his first impressions under a sermon preached by James Haldane, in the mill at Inver". Robert Haldane built a "tabernacle" in South Street, where the Congregational Church met after they sold the Paul Street building around 1799/1800. William Orme, along with two other pastors led the Church for some time until the Haldanes adopted Baptist principles around 1809. The two pastors followed in the way of the Haldanes. Orme and those who did not adopt this new principle on Believers Baptism were evicted by Robert Haldane. The evicted members of the Congregational Church spent a considerable time finding a suitable place in which to worship. By 1810 they were meeting in a hired hall but still wished to build a new chapel. The upper part of a tenement in Canal Crescent became home to them for some time and as numbers grew, they, by 1824, were worshipping in Mill Street. Many years later in 1851, the Mill Street congregation transferred to a new place of worship in Canal Crescent. It closed 21 years later. The year 1855 saw a Morisonian gathering, which at some time met in High Street where Perth Theatre is now situated. They were followers of James Morison of Kilmarnock who was deposed from his place in the United Secession Church by the Synod (New Lights). The reason for this action was that he taught the doctrine of "The Universal love of God" which was shunned by the Church. Unsolved questions 1 Where did the Congregational Church worship before they joined others in the “Union” and after the old friends bought their church? South Street? 2 Was the Congregational Church the same group that bought Thimblerow from Seceders? (the cap-outs) 3 What groups were joined in the Union of 1798? The church had a pewter plate inscribed “Perth Union Chapel 1798” and another “Perth Congregational Church 1798” 4 Is the Perth Union Chapel the Garie group? As we know that the new combined Church was called Perth Congregational Church from 1798.

* Places of Ease were commonplace throughout the country currently. By 1784 there were places in Perth. They were buildings designated for meetings by Christians from different Churches and were originally instigated through the Church of Scotland for the poor and needy. These buildings were used for accommodation as well as for worship.

Liddells Plean house continued

Sorry I left you in the dark...Continue

So Andrew Liddell (1789 to 1854) was the Senior partner in Andrew Liddell and Co,Iron works Glasgow and retired at age 44 giving his nephew the business.

He proceeded to pastor a church having purchased a building for the congregation in Brown Street( Glasgow?) to use.

There was a will dated 15 November 1848 and a codicil ( Change to will) dated 26 August 1851 written at Plean House Stirling shire. Some one else has researched the census for 1851 but could not find Liddells at the Plean house for that date. Research as to other properties has not resulted in finding them on census day.
 We assume he had several properties.



The Plean estate was owned by the Earl of Dunmore.
 Robert Haldane (Airthrey Estate) bought it from the Earl.
1799 Robert Haldane sold off the Plean estate to pay off debts (funding divinity students)
1800 Francis Simpson, Clerk, Carron Iron Works owns the estate.
1819 He commissions Plean House on the estate
1831 Trustees -William Asylum own the house and estate with Various tenants till the end of the century 
1901 Plean Colliery co. own the house with Coal master William Thorneycroft in residence
1922 Thorneycroft buys the house from the Coal Company. 

So I am left with Andrew Liddell renting around late 1840's and certainly in 1851 the time of the will alteration.

Currently the Plean house is owned by Stirling Council it sits well fenced with in the (Plean) Country park. An Interesting wee review from a wonder what happened. 

Liddell, Plean House,...Haldanes...Scotch Baptist and ironworks!!

As I was carrying out a little research a few weeks ago I came across a few bits of interest to pass on to you budding historians. 



I was reading the paper:

The Scotch Baptist Tradition in Great Britain by D.B Murray 

For now all you need to know is that Scotch Baptists were a group of belivers coming from various backgrounds but are not directly linked to Scottish Baptists of today. ( More on that another time)

So Murray mentions a letter by John Cowan an elder in Galashiels who on 11 December 1848 wrote to James Everson.
 He was congratulating Everson for his pamphlet "Reasons for being a Scotch Baptist".

I continued to explain about his workload which although busy was nothing like Eversons.  He contues to say that He visited Mr and Mrs Liddell at Plean House. He continued to Stirling and on to Glasgow in the following days.

Now having lived near Plean I wondered about the "Liddells".

Who were they what did they do etc.

Here is what I discovered.

Andrew Liddell

The visit was to Andrew (B 1789- 1854) and Margaret Liddell, Andrew son of Andrew (B 1736) a school teacher in Bainsford who became a clerk at the Iron works, Falkirk. Margaret was married previously, with children and had a son Robert Mclaren.  I will talk about Andrew Liddell (1789). 

Andrew was married to Janet Goodsir in 1820 and in 1829 on the 2 Novemebr he married Jessie Peddie. Interestingly enough there was a ante-nuptial contract which implies he had assets. So to have a will ( 19/6/1855 at the National Archives Kew) he must have had a measure of wealth.

Andrew as a young person was an assitant to father andrew at the iron works.
At 18 Andrew moves to work in the foundry at Edinburgh and then Leith. It was is wish to be surgeon but things took a different turn. He moves to Glasgow to become a partner in an iron foundry business around 1814/15. His Brother Robert Maclaren advancing funds to contribute to the capital after a retiring partner left.  

Andrew now the main person in the foundry works on till retirement at age 44 gives the business to his nephew (Maclaren) which stage he becomes a Pastor at a Church in Brown street which he had purchased for the use of the congregation.He was a member of the Scottish Baptist Connexion, but he also had interests in Mechanics, Science, Philosphical Society, Arts, Patents Philanthroic work with the likes of the homeless destressed and temperance work. He was also a magistrate. He died in Novemeber 1854 at Bardowie House Baldernock. 

 Now having lived in Plean house, remember Cowan letter what happened?

Plean House picture on Hiveminer.com

Plean House

 Come back tomorrow.....

Bible Society contravenes its formal deeds in ....

 Back in the late 1700's and early 1800s there was a great theological fight with the Bible Society

At one point the Haldanes as supporters of the British and Foreign Bible Society (now known as The Bible Society of England and Wales) stopped supporting it because they were issuing bibles with the Apocrypha in it. The Bible Society were acting contrary to their formal deed of institution.

Haldanes Bible Society tiff!

Congregationalism in Scotland

Congregational Union
There was an attempt by Cromwell to grow Congregationalism in Scotland over the 8 years of Occupation. But it was not until late 18th century that the churches grew, under the labours of the Haldane brothers. When the brothers took on Baptist principles from 1808 Baptists received great benefit from the work of the Haldanes as well.
James and Robert Haldane were committed to itinerant ministry in Scotland from 1797. They were descendants of the Gleneagles family. Robert was in the navy and then spent some time studying from home in Airthrey Stirling. James was involved in the East India company. After reading about the Baptist Mission in India Robert was inspired to use his time and resources to missionary service. James had been successful with John Campbell in setting up Sunday Schools in the west.
In 1797 after James discovered his preaching ability he embarked on a exhibition to the North of Scotland and Orkney.
During the next year they sold Airthrey for £46,000 and decided to devote their time to spread the gospel. They did not hesitate to criticise any defective teaching from parish ministers. This provoked the church and the assembly to pass an act in 1799 restricting the preaching to ministers.
Having trained 200 lay workers and set up churches the running costs amounted to £70,000 after 11 years. At one point the Haldanes as supporters of the British and Foreign Bible Society (now known as The Bible Society of England and Wales) stopped supporting it because they were issuing bibles with the Apocrypha in it.
Greville Ewing (1767-1841) born and educated in Edinburgh after education at Edinburgh university began as Assistant Minister in lady Glenorchy Chapel (Church of Scotland but not under its jurisdiction). Like the Haldanes he was moved to mission work. In 1802 the Haldanes and Ewing split under a differing opinion as to apostolic leadership. Whilst the Haldanes withdrew support for the Bible Society regarding its unconstitutional printing of the Apocrypha, Ewing worked behind the scenes to obtain the society's policy reversal.
On 1 of April 2000 the Scottish Congregational Union joined the United Reformed Church making a UK denomination.