Which side are you looking from...

A Post from 12 years ago has been getting a fair reading of late.

The post from 2006 is here.

This may be to do with some questions I posed on the Free Church friends face book page where there had been a lot of communication about baptism from a free church/various/Presbyterian prospective- as you would expect.

 I came from a Reformed background where baptism was administered to children/ babies not of the age of understanding.  In my youth I was moved to the position of believers baptism as in one believes first thereafter as a testimony in public baptism comes second. Now doctrine and influence, past, experience, and Westminster confession can all play a part in your understanding of the subject but when the Spirit of God convicts you then it overshadows teaching.  I quickly add if it is of God then it will not be contrary to the Bible.

I have heard several times that the jailer and his family were baptised so therefore it is all right to baptise children (not of the age of understanding). Yet if the jailer is working he is not now in the army, ...is he retired from the army therefore older therefore his children may well have been of the age of understanding?

Then there is the thought from the non Presbyterian if baptism is for the child /baby then what about circumcision why are the reformed churches not carrying out this act?

No doubt there is a response to this question  even although the basis of there stance is steeped in the old testament and the Westminster confession.

I have not come across many baptistic people defending the stance they take or the understanding they have on baptism. Of course maybe I have just missed them. Regarding the Westminster Confession we need to be on our guard that we do not hold the Westminster confession at a par with the Bible which we believe is the word of God. There has been many arguments about the inclusion of the Apocrypha and one danger was that it would be seen as part of the word of God and not a simple record of a part of Gods people travels.( See Haldane brothers and there stance against the Bible Society ( British and Foreign ).

Needless to say I have an issue with one part at least of the Westminster confession CHAPTER 28.

In short.

Those that believed were baptised... faith then public profession.

There will be those too who are dogmatic in the mode be it sprinkling or Full immersion. 

I am no scholar but the word implies dipping as far as I can see.

Of course we can make allowances for those infirmed etc.

Previous fairly recent post about my baptism. Summer 2018

Finally you may have hear of the person who asked two people to face each other and he laid an apple on the table (one side was eaten the other whole.)

He asked in general what do you see one said an eaten apple the other said a whole apple.  In this case they were both wrong and seeing things from a particular viewpoint.

Another Sunday. Presbyterians have to thank Monk

Of course I wrote this a few days ago when I was celebrating the discovery of Baptist in Sutherland.

Interesting title for you? now let me explain.

RD Michell 1950 says "By the mid 1600s there were several baptist churches in the different towns that had garrisons.
At first Baptist groups had been supported and encouraged by Cromwell, but when he was appointed Lord protector, there arose an attitude of opposition to him among officers of the Baptist persuasion, that his policy had changed to active hostility.... Baptist officers implicated in sedition included Captain Overton Major Holmes ....The whole baptist cause was under suspicion ,  ... pamphlet was published on behalf of the "rebaptized churches at St Johnstone (Perth) Leith Edinburgh"", Printed in 1655 it had 15 signatures appended.

"In  continuation of the policy of repression and punishment of seditious Baptist officers, Cromwell, struck at the entire Baptist group by ordering the council of scotland, in 1658 to "see that no Baptist holds office of trust, nor practises at law, nor keep a school.". As the Baptist cause went down the Presbyterian cause went up, for Monk had no love for Baptists, and in their repression found willing allies in the Presbyterian ranks."
 
George Monk

Catch up

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Highland Church Part five

Despite the challenges of the North and the Presbyterian culture, there can be new pockets of witness, like Dingwall, where I had a vision for a church way back in 1982,- but the work does need commitment. 

The roving activities of someone building relations is important in addressing the Baptist cause. A lack of relationship will surely reduce any possibility of growth. If we are there at the start of the new work in Fortrose then we have an opportunity to help it grow and add value! Strategically there is lots to consider in the Highlands if looking at a Baptist increase in Witness. 

Firstly What is there to be done where might the focus be? Monthly mass worship in different areas? A quasi church that accommodates some who are members of other churches. An electronic fellowship to link those with distance difficulties. What skills are required. Who are key people with a vision and contacts. What sort of budget is required to move forward. Who will fund such a plan. Who has the commitment for year on year work.

 There is a real difference in church life between the Highlands and the Central belt.

Few appreciate the differences and culture that still exists in the Highlands. Nevertheless. the Baptist witness still has an opportunity to captivate people who are not so drawn to a Presbyterian church form. Concluding thought In a wide spread area it is difficult to pull relationships to have a sense of community in church life. There is a difference between a few Christians getting together regularly and a group wishing to constitute as a church.

A Baptist witness in the Highlands needs to have a clear strategy taking into consideration the Highland culture and investing resources in a long term work with mini “splashes“ as a way of promoting both the Kingdom and Baptist Union. Work may not simply rise up from one corner, and therefore the personnel all need to be flexible in “co-coordinating” work rather than “pinned” to a specific geographical area. I have observed that North folks like to see continuity of personnel and a 7 year plan headed by a “known” person will have a good kick start effect on the work. In my time rubbing shoulders with various Free churches in the Highlands there are many active people with a measure of Baptist conviction but found in their parents Church which is not Baptist. What is needed is a concerted group effort assisted and supported by neighbouring Baptist Churches to address the only alternative to Presbyterianism in the Highlands. Churches be they small, who have recently be created tend to affiliate or take pastor leading from those who they know. 

A Baptist increase presence in the Highlands could encourage groups to grow and in turn constitute to a Baptist fellowship. I sense if we are not there at the beginning we will never be able to help. Finally I would encourage any strategic plan to be most of all encouraging groups to “listen to God” All leaflets and correspondence need to be measured against this observation. Baptists have taken 250 years to conclude their theology,new churches are only on the road to discovery. However right from the start Baptist understanding should be incorporated and I am sure that this “fresh to the hearers” approach will strike a warm cord. A feedback session from Church representatives from neighbouring Baptist churches would be a good starting point to formulate a strategy, a plan, and the implementing of a blessed work.

 May God add to our numbers and maturity as we seek his face.

Baptists in Helmsdale in the 16th century

I have been informed that a book published in November 2007 indicates that as well as baptist being in Leith, Ayr and Perth at the time of Cromwell, that there is a strong case that English baptists were in Helmsdale at a garrison around 1650.

I would appreciate any information that would tell us a bit more about these soldiers in the North of Scotland... 200 years before the disruption.

Emerging but not from the water

You would expect emerging conversation to be filled with modern logos and symbols pointing to newness and post Christian thinking. But how do you relate this theology or way of life in the Scottish context or indeed in the Highlands and Islands.

Stuart Blyth on his barricade blog makes mention of some baptists meeeting to discuss the emerging scene.

He says

"Under the broad auspices of the Centre for the Study of Scottish Christian Spirituality we are going to be hosting a coffee-shop discussion on the Emerging thing in Scotland on the evening of Wednesday 25th April at 7.30pm at Starbucks in Borders, the Fort, Glasgow."

Hope the conversation is fruitful.

Baptist in Caithness and maybe in Sutherland 1921

Mission Hall Brora




Well done Phil a casual question about Caithness churches made me get out the Baptist in Scotland book 1988 (edited David Bebbington.) and see what Johnston said about Caithness.

Here is the run down...We have wondered was there a work as far down as Brora and Golspie by Baptists?

Phil asks about Caithness With there 3/4 Baptist Churches with one of them being a newer work - Has there been any other Baptist churches/plants in this area that either haven't taken off or no longer in existence?

Phil

Wednesday, 20 September, 2006

I reply

If you mean Caithness then there is Keiss of course the mother, Wick well established ( I think they got the benefit of strong evangelicals at some point who left the establishment.)
Scarfskerry has a history of lay preachers and another "glasite" aspect - only their pastor will administer the communion ( may have changed now).
Thurso has had two attempts one goes back to the aftermath of Haldanes who made it to Orkney. The more recent Thurso Church was constituted in the 80's. I think there were Quasi -Baptist in Castletown off and on. But not affiliated to the Scottish BU. I am not sure about Cannisbay.

Freswick was preaching station and Stroma Church is now closed.

Bearing in mind the Caithness population has almost halved the Baptist are holding their own - so to speak.
So Caithness Churches and constitution dates
Thurso 1905 - 1840:1982
Scarfskerry 1816
Kiess -1750
and Wick - 1806.
with Stroma and Freswick (preaching station)

Now some months back I was looking at the 1921 revival and how it had effected Brora. Was there Baptists working in Sutherland?

23/2/1922-Northern Times
Revival in Wick
"“The revival in Wick is still progressing John Troupe's presence was an additional attraction, He is now almost well after his illness, but still to refrain from much exertion....one of the converts a young man died recently after a short illness,The hymns and prayers also bearing pathetic terms. A solo sung by Miss Lara Rosie was much appreciated."”

In Johnstons contribution about Baptists in Caithness he states that The famous Jock Troup, cooper - cum- revivalist, was married to one of the Blacks of Stirkoke, long assoicated with Wick (Baptist) Church. Jock was an instrument in the 1921 revival in Wick and elsewhere.

The plot thickens was it then Baptists, that moved south to Helmsdale, Brora, Golspie all the way to the seaboard villages in 1921/1922...

Scotch Baptists

Scotch Baptist
This long gone group of churches disappeared in Scotland after the final lay pastor in Largo died in 1927. Scotch Baptists origins come from the Glas/Sandeman line these churches although not "Baptist" inspired by Glas were heavily influenced in theology, governance and practice. Later some took up the believers baptism stance and felt strongly on the plurality of leadership through elders. These elders preferred to be not taught academically in church ways and theology for ministry. Communion was only celebrated if an elder was present the Glasite principle of unanimity of exclusion of dissenters from the majority was upheld.
Archibald Mclean and Robert Carmichael are noted as the main promoters of the Scotch Baptist tradition. Churches sprang up or took on these Scottish principles in the late 1700's and early 1800's, but division on practice resulted in splits in 1810 and 1834 and in the following years to 1927 the churches disappeared. Other influences by way of "English Baptist" format gained a hold which was more liberal and accommodating. The Scotch Baptist style did move into North England and Wales and pockets of witness are still worshipping but not in Scotland.
Churches were present in Edinburgh at various sites also in Dalkieth, Mussleburgh, Dunferline, Kirkcaldy, Largo, Paisley, Galasheilds, Stobhill, Stirling (1805) Falkirk Glasgow and Newburgh (1808).Despite the closure of these churches in Scotland some of the practices can still be seen in the Scottish Baptist movement of later years.
Robert Carmichael whilst a minister of the general Associated Synod Church was called to give an account of his preaching having been suspended the previous year. His defence which he read out was entitled "The declaration and confession of Robert Carmichael containing and an adherence unto explication of his new principles.
These were:
Christ Kingdom is Spiritual
There is no such thing as a "National Church"
The word of god is central for doctrine and not the confession of faith or catechism
There is no warrant for national covenanting
Church Government i.e. Presbyteries are not instituted by Christ and there is no visible church as such but a society of Christ's disciples, called together by the gospel.
In 1763 Carmichael was debarred for "gross dangerous errors..."
Moving from Coupar Angus to Glasgow he became an elder in the Glasite Church. The following year he is found in Edinburgh and adopting Baptist views moving to London , in 1765 he is baptised by John Gill. He then returned to Edinburgh and baptised those of an independent Church in the waters of the Leith. He later moved to Dundee as an elder before his early death back in Edinburgh.
Archibald Mclean(1733-1812) was a well travelled businessman who's writings also helped spread Glasite and latterly Scotch Baptist theology and practice. He was in printing and book selling. His first church was in 1765. Mclean was very much marked out in Scotland for his stance on believers baptism and promotion which was a step Glas did not reach. He was convinced that scripture had all that was necessary fro church practice and theology. He was influential in the north of England and was in contact with churches in Newcastle, Nottingham, Beverley, Hull, Liverpool and Chester. North Wales Churches were encouraged by J R Jones of Ramoth.
Mclean was a keen evangelist and promoter of the Baptist Missionary Society. He was willing to work along side Andrew Fuller of Soham, Cambridgeshire, an English Baptist of reformed persuasion for the sake of the gospel.
When Newburgh church wanted to observe the lords supper without an elder present Mclean would not accept this practice. Some left the church and as mentioned earlier the churches split 1810 & 1834 never to be resolved. Communion was administered weekly in the churches.
These Scotch Baptist churches of which Carmichael and Mclean undoubtedly helped greatly disappeared over the years. Some churches became churches of Christ who continued the plurality of elders.
In Whyte Causway a church took Scotch Baptist principals in 1852 thereafter there were several splits and in 1855 some left the church to become Church of Christ Pathhead (Campbellites- Alexander Campbell).

Scottish Baptist Union policy for a time was not to promote a new Baptist church in an area where Churches of Christ were working because of their similarities. Finally as we close this section on a long gone church, in 1786 the Scotch Baptists published a selection of Psalms Hymns and Spiritual Songs, no doubt aided by a previous Glasite hymn book.

Sir William Sinclair - Baptists

Sir William Sinclair
Sir William Sinclair, a landowner in Caithness spend some time in London before returning to Kiess in 1750.


By that time he was convinced of their truth of believers baptism and set up a Baptist Church primarily made up of his own personal workforce."The preaching knight" was seen with some suspicion on account of his faith and practice.
Sir John Sinclair's first Statistical account of Scotland 1791-99 Indicates a group of about half a dozen ana-Baptists on the estate of Keiss the remaining disciples of The late Sir William Sinclair. In 1793 Dr John Morison in Canisbay parish said "there is an established church presence almost all attend except for a few Anabaptists”. This pocket witness survived the years and they are still several fellowships of Baptists in Caithness as opposed to Sutherland where there is no established Baptist witness.

Cromwell Baptists

Baptist
Cromwell Baptists





It is recognised that there was a Baptist presence in Perth by 1653. Baptist churches in England had been established in the first half of the century. Cromwell had set up 18 garrison towns and four citadels at Leith, Ayr Inverness and Perth. Governor Overton was a convinced Baptist and stationed at Perth.
The governor of Leith was also a Baptist. In England non conformists were seen as troublesome as opposed to Scotland where matters were seen to be lighter in terms of threat to the king. Cromwell's men were in the habit of intercepting mail to check for insurrection in the ranks. In 1655 a pamphlet was published re baptised churches at St Jounstoune( Perth's old name) Leith and Edinburgh. The purpose was to set out the churches commitment to the king and country and dispel concerns.
On the departure of Cromwell's men the Baptist witness was very small and for 100 years little progress was made.

Congregationalism in Scotland

Congregational Union
There was an attempt by Cromwell to grow Congregationalism in Scotland over the 8 years of Occupation. But it was not until late 18th century that the churches grew, under the labours of the Haldane brothers. When the brothers took on Baptist principles from 1808 Baptists received great benefit from the work of the Haldanes as well.
James and Robert Haldane were committed to itinerant ministry in Scotland from 1797. They were descendants of the Gleneagles family. Robert was in the navy and then spent some time studying from home in Airthrey Stirling. James was involved in the East India company. After reading about the Baptist Mission in India Robert was inspired to use his time and resources to missionary service. James had been successful with John Campbell in setting up Sunday Schools in the west.
In 1797 after James discovered his preaching ability he embarked on a exhibition to the North of Scotland and Orkney.
During the next year they sold Airthrey for £46,000 and decided to devote their time to spread the gospel. They did not hesitate to criticise any defective teaching from parish ministers. This provoked the church and the assembly to pass an act in 1799 restricting the preaching to ministers.
Having trained 200 lay workers and set up churches the running costs amounted to £70,000 after 11 years. At one point the Haldanes as supporters of the British and Foreign Bible Society (now known as The Bible Society of England and Wales) stopped supporting it because they were issuing bibles with the Apocrypha in it.
Greville Ewing (1767-1841) born and educated in Edinburgh after education at Edinburgh university began as Assistant Minister in lady Glenorchy Chapel (Church of Scotland but not under its jurisdiction). Like the Haldanes he was moved to mission work. In 1802 the Haldanes and Ewing split under a differing opinion as to apostolic leadership. Whilst the Haldanes withdrew support for the Bible Society regarding its unconstitutional printing of the Apocrypha, Ewing worked behind the scenes to obtain the society's policy reversal.
On 1 of April 2000 the Scottish Congregational Union joined the United Reformed Church making a UK denomination.

History of Stirling Baptist Church

H, sent me a copy of the "Standing on the Rock"

A History of Stirling Baptist Church 1805 2005. This book is by Brian R Tolbot. Unfortunately I am unaware of any outlets stocking it for resale.

Having not completed it yet, I reserve judgment but what I have skimmed looks great and informative.

I am grateful to the increse in traffic to this blog. keep coming back for more related stuff.