Speaking about Paul, he did not even plant all these churches that he wrote to. So does this mean that those he was working with after that was outwith. From previous post on emergent church a week or so ago bringing out the fact that Jesus was from Nazareth and was unable to do miracles there for their lack of faith. He was described as a "prophet without honour". This is often I guess a term which is used for a local person whose work is not recognised in their own area but goes on to do great things elsewhere. I recognise the passion and conviction of Dave & Dinsy who have posted on how they see the need to appoint from within. I am not neccessary against and this may well be the ideal but we do need to like any other issue discern the mind of God. He may say within or he may say outwith on different occassions But we need to hear what the Spirit says to the churches.
I dont think we can be prescriptive on inside or outside. The right(God Spirit based) person is required and needs to be recognised as the person for the job.
Interestingly - No one has said they need to be a good preacher!!!!
How does one stop the best preacher going to the best church????
But a pioneer is required for a church that needs to move on. A settler is needed to establish a Church.
Some people move between settler and pioneer- the person with empathy!
I am unaware of leadership in a church that has gone on to "fulltime Work" within the Church and been "successful" or at least none come to mind.
Its a diferent kettle of fish a Church of 12 and a church of 500.
I recall the judges who were put in place to help leadership...and they came from within! recognised and appointed.
Now can you write a job description for a church worker.? That would comply with current uk legislation. its not all about GOR.
Genuine operational requirement. ie must pray with people!
When you ask the question "How should a church call its workers? from within? or from where the skills gifts are found?" this implies that the skills and gifts are not to be found within ("or" in English generally being the exclusive, rather than the inclusive or - one or the other, but not usually both).
If you start from the standpoint that they are only outwith the fellowship, then obviously you have to go outside to get them. I don't think this is always the case.
Phil, you misunderstand my position, which is not that we necessarily need to appoint from within, but that in a properly taught fellowship, the gifts of leadership will be found within, unless God has chosen to withhold them. If He has withheld them, I would want to know if the fellowship were at fault for this, and did we need to repent and seek forgiveness; or what was God teaching us through the withholding. I would not just automatically look outside without seeking God as to why there was the need to do so.
In the case that the gifts are present within the fellowship, then yes I would always choose to use them rather than look for someone outside, with the same gifts, who would then have to get to know the people and to start building relationships with them. I think this is a pragmatic reason for appointing from within. But there is also the question of stewardship and using one's talents. If God has blessed a fellowship with a leader, are they not burying that leadership talent in a field if they go outwith the fellowship for someone else?
5 comments:
How did they do it in the biblical record - from within, thats my position, but still waiting to be shown otherwise
Ah
But there was no without at that time!
What if there is not the skills gifts or calling from within.?
Why was Paul and barnabus called to a work somewhere else ,Because somewhere else did not have within?
Speaking about Paul, he did not even plant all these churches that he wrote to. So does this mean that those he was working with after that was outwith.
From previous post on emergent church a week or so ago bringing out the fact that Jesus was from Nazareth and was unable to do miracles there for their lack of faith. He was described as a "prophet without honour". This is often I guess a term which is used for a local person whose work is not recognised in their own area but goes on to do great things elsewhere.
I recognise the passion and conviction of Dave & Dinsy who have posted on how they see the need to appoint from within. I am not neccessary against and this may well be the ideal but we do need to like any other issue discern the mind of God. He may say within or he may say outwith on different occassions But we need to hear what the Spirit says to the churches.
Tip top Phil.
I dont think we can be prescriptive on inside or outside.
The right(God Spirit based) person is required and needs to be recognised as the person for the job.
Interestingly - No one has said they need to be a good preacher!!!!
How does one stop the best preacher going to the best church????
But a pioneer is required for a church that needs to move on. A settler is needed to establish a Church.
Some people move between settler and pioneer- the person with empathy!
I am unaware of leadership in a church that has gone on to "fulltime Work" within the Church and been "successful" or at least none come to mind.
Its a diferent kettle of fish a Church of 12 and a church of 500.
I recall the judges who were put in place to help leadership...and they came from within! recognised and appointed.
Now can you write a job description for a church worker.?
That would comply with current uk legislation. its not all about GOR.
Genuine operational requirement. ie must pray with people!
B
When you ask the question "How should a church call its workers? from within? or from where the skills gifts are found?" this implies that the skills and gifts are not to be found within ("or" in English generally being the exclusive, rather than the inclusive or - one or the other, but not usually both).
If you start from the standpoint that they are only outwith the fellowship, then obviously you have to go outside to get them. I don't think this is always the case.
Phil, you misunderstand my position, which is not that we necessarily need to appoint from within, but that in a properly taught fellowship, the gifts of leadership will be found within, unless God has chosen to withhold them. If He has withheld them, I would want to know if the fellowship were at fault for this, and did we need to repent and seek forgiveness; or what was God teaching us through the withholding. I would not just automatically look outside without seeking God as to why there was the need to do so.
In the case that the gifts are present within the fellowship, then yes I would always choose to use them rather than look for someone outside, with the same gifts, who would then have to get to know the people and to start building relationships with them. I think this is a pragmatic reason for appointing from within. But there is also the question of stewardship and using one's talents. If God has blessed a fellowship with a leader, are they not burying that leadership talent in a field if they go outwith the fellowship for someone else?
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